Any road cars with a sequential gearbox?

"zeontestpilot" (zeontestpilot) 05/12/2016 at 11:33 • Filed to: None

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The idea of a sequential manual transmission sounds amazing, like a wannabe rally driver. Do any road cars have one as stock? Or are all manual transmissions just gated?

I mean, I can't be the only one interested in a sequential tranny, right? I think it would be fun to DD one.

petebmwm > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 11:35

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bmw’s smg comes to mind....... i think it means sequencial manual gear box

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 11:38

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BAC Mono, has one I believe... and the BMW SMG is mechanically one, it just happens to have it’s clutch and shifting controlled by a computer...

djmt1 > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 11:38

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Koenigseggs had them before they switched to DCTs.

HammerheadFistpunch > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 11:39

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Toyota MR2, BMW SMG, Fiat Ducato/Ram promaster, Smart, Aston Martin had one, so did Ferrari and The aventador uses something like one.

BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 11:40

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MR-S had one, in some models. And the E46 M3. And a bunch of higher end models. Aston Martin, Ferrari, Porsche.

Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 11:40

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I believe the Fiat 500 Abarth 695 Biposto has one. But that might not be truly sequential. Maybe a dog box.

zeontestpilot > petebmwm 05/12/2016 at 11:40

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It seems the smg has a hydraulic clutch, :/.

Still, pretty close

AM3R shamefully returns > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 11:41

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E46 M3, E60 M5, and I think a generation of MR2 had one.

zeontestpilot > JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t 05/12/2016 at 11:42

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Yeah, I just read that. Curious idea really.

dogisbadob > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 11:43

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Quite a few have been made for road use, as has already been pointed out, but they were all crap. They’ve been eclipsed by DCT’s.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 11:47

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It would be awful. Also unreliable in larger applications.

TheJWT > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 11:47

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Very few cars have mechancial sequential manuals like in your picture above. Semi-automatic ones are everywhere though; even my mom’s 1.8 Jetta has one. It’s garbage, but still...

petebmwm > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 11:48

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so you mean a dog box or crash box type..

zeontestpilot > HammerheadFistpunch 05/12/2016 at 11:49

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The MR2 had one?

zeontestpilot > Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap 05/12/2016 at 11:52

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A dog box?

zeontestpilot > BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. 05/12/2016 at 11:53

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I'll have to keep an eye out for the cheaper ones then.

Honeybunchesofgoats > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 11:54

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http://www.superstreetonline.com/cars/new-car-r…

BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 11:54

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I hear that unless you’re on a track, driving at ten tenths, that they’re awful. Very rough shifting.

Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 11:55

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How the gears are engaged.

BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 11:55

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Dog leg box.

zeontestpilot > dogisbadob 05/12/2016 at 11:55

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Do DCT’s let you sequentially select the gears then? Id hope they would.

zeontestpilot > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 05/12/2016 at 11:56

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Hmmm, why is that?

zeontestpilot > TheJWT 05/12/2016 at 11:57

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It makes me wonder, why is their application not more widespread?

HammerheadFistpunch > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 11:57

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The C65M trans in the w30 generation.

zeontestpilot > petebmwm 05/12/2016 at 11:57

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Umm...maybe ? Not sure what those mean, :)

not for canada - australian in disguise > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 11:58

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Caterham makes a few.

Although you probably won’t be finding one in NA any time soon.

kanadanmajava1 > petebmwm 05/12/2016 at 11:58

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I think that the definition of a sequential gearbox is that that gear can be changed with just up/down movement but also that the shift operation is purely mechanical and it doesn’t rely on electronics. In most cases the sequential gearbox does have a force transducer in the gear lever which cuts the throttle during the upshift.

The BMW system is just an automated manual and it’s based on a normal h-pattern synchro gearbox. A sequential needs to based on a dog box type engaging mechanism ot otherwise it won’t last long.

I think that most motorcycle gearboxes are sequential type.

zeontestpilot > Honeybunchesofgoats 05/12/2016 at 11:59

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Thanks for the link. And I just realized, I love your screen name.

TheJWT > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 12:00

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Reliability, complexity, cost, no market...

Basically all the stuff car enthusiasts don’t care about.

dogisbadob > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 12:00

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most of them do, via paddles. The exceptions I know of are the Focus and Fiesta

zeontestpilot > BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. 05/12/2016 at 12:00

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But it's the norm for rally, right? Or do they use heavy duty ones?

1111111111111111111111 > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 12:00

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I’m pretty sure that’s how they work, you can’t go from 4th to 2nd without hitting 3rd.

zeontestpilot > Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap 05/12/2016 at 12:01

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Looks like I have some reading to do then, lol.

Opposite Locksmith > kanadanmajava1 05/12/2016 at 12:02

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But there is a clutch tho

BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 12:03

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Yeah, with rally, the advantage is that you don’t have to shift it into gear, it’s either a push or a pull. Much easier when you’re being tossed around a dirt road. There’s companies that will make custom ones for very much $$$ if you want one in your car.

zeontestpilot > not for canada - australian in disguise 05/12/2016 at 12:05

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Bummer....

Party-vi > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 12:05

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Ascari A10 has a sequential gearbox

zeontestpilot > dogisbadob 05/12/2016 at 12:06

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....I’m thinking this is one of those +/- things on the shifters, isn't it?

zeontestpilot > 1111111111111111111111 05/12/2016 at 12:07

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Yeah, but I think that's part of the charm.

dogisbadob > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 12:07

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on some cars

kanadanmajava1 > Opposite Locksmith 05/12/2016 at 12:08

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The clutch exists but in most cases it isn’t used while shifting with a sequential gearbox. I was just thinking that might definition might be too tight. There are some that are operated with air pressure rather tahn just mechanical lever.

TheJWT > Opposite Locksmith 05/12/2016 at 12:08

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Sequential manuals still use clutches to get going from a stop

zeontestpilot > BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. 05/12/2016 at 12:08

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Would be nice to have one in my Grand Prix, $$$ stops me, lol.

TheJWT > BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. 05/12/2016 at 12:10

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A dog box and a dog-leg gearbox are very different;)

jariten1781 > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 12:11

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Some project cars with motorcycle drive trains will maintain the motorcycle gear box. That's probably the cheapest way to get a pure mechanical sequential gear box in a four wheeler on the road.

BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. > TheJWT 05/12/2016 at 12:15

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Are you referring to straight cut gears then?

BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 12:17

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Yeah, I was looking too, but when they start pricing at three times what I paid for my car, I suddenly decide it’s not a good idea.

TheJWT > BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. 05/12/2016 at 12:19

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A dog box is so called because it uses a dog clutch. I’m not 100% sure how they work so I won’t make an ass of myself trying to explain it, but it’s different from a normal clutch. A dog-leg gearbox is just a normal manual with first in the wrong place

zeontestpilot > BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. 05/12/2016 at 12:21

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Which is a bummer IMO, or even a gated manual. :/

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 12:29

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They are designed for fast shifting, not smooth shifting. You can’t go straight from whatever gear you’re in to neutral, (generally) they don’t shift when stopped, they incur an MPG penalty because the whole gearset is attached at all times, and you need to rev-match yourself or start eating gears because there’s no synchromesh.

MarquetteLa > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 12:29

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Quaife makes aftermarket sequential transmissions if you want to put one in your car. High quality, high prices. https://shop.quaife.co.uk/gearboxes

The Stig's former college room mate > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 12:30

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BMW offers it in M cars instead of an automatic. it is absolutely awful at low speeds. driving one is only slightly better than walking.

BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. > TheJWT 05/12/2016 at 12:32

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I forgot about a dog clutch. It’s basically a clutch that locks together mechanically so it doesn’t slip.

So that means that “dog” can refer to very different things in regard to transmissions.

My bird IS the word > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 12:32

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Most sequential manuals use straight cut gears. They are noisy as hell and require frequent transmission rebuilds. An automated manual is really as close as you can get without a huge drivability penalty.

PotbellyJoe and 42 others > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 12:35

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The MR2 was terrible. The manual was vastly superior. I drove one for a day home from VT to NJ. The only positive was the throttle blips it would give you dropping gears pulling into gas stations. After that I begged for a clutch.

Cé hé sin > BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. 05/12/2016 at 12:37

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Those were all conventional boxes with automatic clutches though.

A real sequential box as found in a bike would be crap in normal driving.

Cé hé sin > Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap 05/12/2016 at 12:37

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It’s a dog box.

Cé hé sin > HammerheadFistpunch 05/12/2016 at 12:40

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But all those are conventional boxes. The clutch and maybe the gear change are automated.

just-a-scratch > TheJWT 05/12/2016 at 12:40

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What do you see as the important reliability problems with sequential gearboxes?

HammerheadFistpunch > Cé hé sin 05/12/2016 at 12:40

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Yup

just-a-scratch > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 12:41

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Not a lot of cars & trucks use them, but every motorcycle I've ever ridden has a sequential transmission.

BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. > just-a-scratch 05/12/2016 at 12:43

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The straight cut gears wear more quickly.

zeontestpilot > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 05/12/2016 at 12:44

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Yeah, I read somewhere you have to double clutch because there is no synchromesh.

TheJWT > just-a-scratch 05/12/2016 at 12:47

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Mechanical sequentials don’t use a traditional clutch to shift gears, so there’s a lot more wear

zeontestpilot > The Stig's former college room mate 05/12/2016 at 12:48

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What if my Commute has me going +45 mph for 90% of it?

zeontestpilot > My bird IS the word 05/12/2016 at 12:49

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Huh, well there goes that idea, :/.

Saracen > 1111111111111111111111 05/12/2016 at 13:03

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But you can change down two gears quickly with a dual clutch by double tapping the paddle.

Mattbob > The Stig's former college room mate 05/12/2016 at 13:26

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I don’t know if an SMG is really what he was talking about. If so, it kind of opens up the doors to quite a few cars. To copy wikipedia:

Alfa Romeo 156 2.0 TS/JTS/GTA ( Selespeed )

Alfa Romeo 147 2.0 TS/GTA (Selespeed)

Alfa Romeo GT JTS (Selespeed)

Alfa Romeo 159 2.2 JTS (Selespeed)

Alfa Romeo Brera 2.2 JTS (Selespeed)

Alfa Romeo Spider 2.2 JTS (Selespeed)

Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione & 8C Spider (Q-Select)

Aston Martin (certain models)

Audi R8 (R-Tronic)

1997 BMW E36 M3 [2] (SMG)

BMW E46 M3 (SMG II)

BMW E60 M5 (SMG III)

BMW E63/64 M6 (SMG III)

BMW E85 Z4 (Optional SMG)

Citroën C4 HDI (Optional EGS)

Fiat Stilo Abarth (Selespeed)

Fiat Bravo Brazil (Dualogic)

Fiat Punto (Selespeed)

1997 Ferrari F355 (F1)

Ferrari FXX

Ferrari 360

Ferrari Enzo

Ferrari F430

Ferrari 612 Scaglietti

Ferrari 599

Isuzu Aska (NAVi5)

Isuzu Gemini (NAVi5)

Lamborghini Gallardo (E gear)

2010 Lexus LFA (ASG)

Maserati (certain models)

Proton Savvy AMT

2002 Toyota MR2 (SMT)

1111111111111111111111 > Saracen 05/12/2016 at 13:55

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Exactly.

The Stig's former college room mate > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 14:23

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It’s fine once you’re moving. starting/stopping is awkward. the clutch (which is computer controlled- no pedal) is like an on/off switch. don’t even try to parallel park- unless you don’t like your bumpers

The Stig's former college room mate > Mattbob 05/12/2016 at 14:38

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Well, SMG does stand for sequential manual gearbox. if he’s looking for a truly manual sequential gearbox with no autonomous capability and still retaining a clutch pedal, then I can’t think of one. I do remember back in the late 80's and early 90's people building prostreet muscle cars with Lenco transmissions. I believe Hurst also made a shifter for GM 4 speeds (probably Muncie M22) that put all 4 gears in line instead of an H pattern. Forced you to grab each gear sequentially with a ratchet type action. Couldn’t skip shift (i.e. first to third). neither of these is factory, though.

Jonee > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 14:56

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A lot of old microcars, like the above Messerschmitt, had sequential transmissions because they used scooter drivetrains. So, you’d get neutral between 1st and 2nd, but they’d also add a neutral lever. They’re really fun to drive. Some of them had column mounted shifters with a sequential tranny which is kind of kooky, but ends up being like a primitive flappy paddle.

zeontestpilot > just-a-scratch 05/12/2016 at 14:58

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I knew that one, and it does prove they can make them smooth.

zeontestpilot > Jonee 05/12/2016 at 15:07

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Sounds fun, :)

My bird IS the word > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 16:54

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Yea not sure what everything else is thinking but I believe it is a transmission rebuild every 15,000 miles. Unfortunately it is a racecar- only thing.

BloodlessWeevil > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 05/12/2016 at 17:07

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Why is that the case? I thought the only difference was how the gear selector engages the forks and that they are (or could be) mechanically identical.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > zeontestpilot 05/12/2016 at 19:59

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straight cut gears are also weaker, less contact area on the teeth, so the force from one gear to another is concentrated on a smaller area.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > BloodlessWeevil 05/13/2016 at 07:27

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Depends. As I understand it, alot are “sequentially selected” automatics and there are true automatic sequential boxes like the BMW SMG, but a true sequential manual box is a synchroless box with tapered gears so you can jam it into the next one without using the clutch, but you need to release the torque for a moment or eat your gears. That’s where having a fast-revving light-internals engine matters and why they’re put in motorcycles and not road cars. If you have a heavy flywheel and heavily counterweighted crank designed for smooth operation, it won’t be able as easily to rev up or down to reduce the torque because of the internal inertia.

Marriokart > zeontestpilot 05/13/2016 at 16:07

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There’s apparently a conversion for the Porsche PDK to give you a sequential style lever like rally cars. Unfortunately it’s quite expensive (on top of the Porsche) and wears out the synchros quite quickly (60k miles ish)